Ken Hayward is a Vice President for Community Relations at Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan. He joins us today to discuss his journey as a prostate cancer survivor.
Ken talks about his experience from diagnosis to treatment to survivorship, and how his experience as a collegiate baseball player at the University of Michigan informed his perspective. He needed "teammates," from his wife to fellow survivors and more. This came in the form of education, emotional support, and more. Gone are the old days of "rub some dirt on it and move on."
Being your own best advocate with your health care provider is vitally important. It was Ken's request to have his PSA levels checked that led to his diagnosis, and the chance to catch the cancer in time.
Dr. Lutz and Ken spend the end of the conversation swapping stories that any sports fan would enjoy - from Gordie Howe to Bo Schembechler and more.
Resources:
MIU Men's Health Foundation Website:https://www.miumenshealthfoundation.org/
Dr. Lutz: Welcome to the On Call for Men's Health Podcast. And I'm Dr. Michael Lutz. This is where we talk about things you don't want to talk about, but these are conversations that could save your life or the lives of the men you love. And thank you for joining us. Today, we're gonna be talking with Ken Hayward from Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan, who's the vice president for community relations. Welcome Ken.
Ken: Thank you, Dr. Lutz. Appreciate the opportunity to chat with you today.
Dr. Lutz: So we've only briefly met, we've only briefly chatted over another conversation and just part of our conversation, you just happenstance say ,"By the way, I'm a prostate cancer survivor."
Why do you think it is? That guys are just so, shy, in general? You are the first person to just make it part of a casual conversation. Why are guys in general, so reticent to ever talk about it?
Ken: Well that's a great question and I think it's very personal for everyone. And I think for me, I feel like it is a responsibility of mine having gone through the journey to share my story, because if I hadn't advocated for myself, maybe we'll get into this.
And if I hadn't been proactive in taking care of myself in this regard, it could have been a different outcome. But because it's so personal, and I think because it, in a way can connect to someone's personal relationship with their partner, it just is almost a little taboo. And the thing I found too, when bringing it up is that, prostate cancer. Well every guy's gonna eventually deal with that. And it's just I don't wanna say it's underscored, but it's not treated the same as maybe something else. And I feel very strongly that through my journey and knowing other people that have gone through it, that if you don't advocate for yourself, first of all, and second of all, pay attention to your health, and thirdly, establish a baseline so that what you're dealing with. It can just be a far different story. So I bring it up because it's amazing when I bring it up in casual conversation. How many people, either in the conversation or pull you aside later and say, oh, I'm dealing with the same thing or, oh, by the way.
And then you share your story and hopefully. It can help people pay attention to some things that maybe they do, or maybe they don't on their own.
Dr. Lutz: You know, men in general are just not good advocates, especially for themselves. And typically when a guy comes in the office, it's either because their physician said, "You have to do this."
Or their spouse says, "You know what, something's wrong. You need to get it checked out. You need to get these screenings." So how did you end up being your own advocate?
Ken: Well, and I can certainly relate to that. I was a college athlete. I grew up in an era where, you know, rub some mud on it and get back out there, is certainly the attitude that I had about a lot of things. So I turned 52, went for my annual physical and asked my physician, gee, I'm over 50. Shouldn't we check my PSA? This was a while ago, back in the day where it wouldn't be clicking a computer button, but he basically on a clipboard checked another box.
And when they did my blood draw to check my cholesterol and lots of other things, they checked my PSA and it was that simple. So if I hadn't asked that question, I don't know if I would've had a baseline for my PSA because the story unfolds when I go back one year later in the springtime. When my PSA again, was on the list of now common blood tests that they drew at my physical and aberration was noticed, and that it had gone up a little bit.
And thankfully he recognized that and said, well maybe this is something you should follow up on with a urologist, which I did, which then led me to a biopsy. Which the doctor that performed the biopsy, thought everything looked okay. I wasn't having issues that I could tell and then called me the next day, and gave me the news that, that it was cancerous.
And it was a very fast growing cancer and that I needed to make a decision, how to deal with it relatively quickly. And I just think back to April of whatever year, it was seven years ago, eight years ago that if I hadn't asked that question about having a baseline for my PSA. This would've never been found. And the reason that I'm here today and healthy and everything going well is because it was treated right away.
Dr. Lutz: Do you remember where you were when you got the phone call?
Ken: I do. Well, I was at work in my office and the funny thing is, I was in sales and marketing for a long time in my career.
And I was in the hospitality business and a long time in my career before where I'm at now. So I tend to develop relationships with whoever I'm with thankfully. And the gentleman physician who did my biopsy, we talked about this, that, and the other thing. And he did a great job in finding out if I was having issues and what brought me there and how, and I explained my story.
So not that you can, obviously you do a biopsy for a reason. You do a biopsy. But knowing that I wasn't having the symptoms, knowing that my prostate wasn't enlarged knowing that from his opinion, he thought it looked okay. So I can genuinely tell you when he called me the next day himself, he was surprised, and I could hear that in his voice.
And it almost gave me a little bit of reassurance. When you hear the word cancer, right. First of all, and then you immediately start... your mind starts going lots of places, but making a plan and getting treatment was paramount in my journey and deciding right away.
And maybe that gets back to the rub mud on it and get back out there type theory. It was like, okay, what do I need to do to get better? That's what I was willing to do and wanted to do. I wanted to know my options and I wanted to know what I needed to do. And so the journey changes a little bit then, and we can talk about that.
I'd love to talk about that. But I can't move on from the point that if I hadn't just asked my physician to check the box a year prior, Who knows where I would've been three or four years later when I was having health issues and it might have been too late. It might have been, it would've been, a much different story.
Dr. Lutz you know that better than I do of what could happen. But if I hadn't had the early detection, there is no way my treatment would've gone as well as it did. And that is, if nothing else comes out of this, get your PSA level checked. Get it checked regularly when you're told to and pay attention to it because if you don't, it can be a different story.
Dr. Lutz: You've used the expression of rub mud on it and move on. Sounds like you've been raised in a, kind of a tough environment, which is what we oftentimes do, raise our boys to do. We tell 'em that big boys don't cry and yeah, we we go on with all those things, but I'm just kind of curious after you got the phone call, how did you feel?
Did you feel like the sense of overwhelmingness, any sadness? Just maybe a sense of relief that it was diagnosed? What kind of feelings went through your mind at the point you got the phone call?
Ken: I can tell you the sense of relief didn't come until much later when you Monday morning quarterback it.
And when I can talk about it, years later now, the sense of relief and the thankfulness of being aware and being diagnosed early, didn't come until you looked backwards. At the time, you can't help panic a little bit and worry. Again, when you hear the term cancer, you have cancer, and I can explain how I eventually helped deal with that.
And the rub the mud on it thing comes full circle too, but the emotion at the time was after coming to grips with it. So I guess the first thing is panic. The second thing is you can't help, but eventually think maybe when you're going to bed.That night or a night later, "Why me, gee, what did I do that would make this happen?"
But then your head quickly gets to, what am I gonna do? And you lean on, thankfully, my wife is a, an RN. She's a nurse. And she thinks about things from a clinical perspective, more than I did and could help with that. And thankfully I was treated by great physicians at U of M who walked me through the journey.
That was part of my story, giving me the options and dealing with it. But I think the rub the mud on it mentality, the athlete mentality in you is you gotta win. Right? You gotta beat it.
Dr. Lutz: Yeah.
Ken: And every athlete that competes at any level at anything always has doubt, but never wants anyone to know it. And you wonder if you're prepared enough and you've wondered if they're not better than you, or if they're better prepared than you, but you never let and want anybody to know that. And in this instance, I think that mentality though, of you've gotta win, right? There's no other option. So what's it gonna take? What are my best options? What's my play?
And then quite honestly, you have to trust and develop a relationship with people that can support you. Family, friends, and also your physicians that you believe in. And that can steer you because there were choices for treatment. There were options for treatment and you have to pick one and you have to feel confident and comfortable with the choices you make and there's educational opportunities.
And there's, you can read all you want, but when it comes right down to it, it is a personal decision and it is gonna have ramifications on your personal life. And so you have to come to terms with that and make the best decision for yourself moving forward. And I know people who chose, who were in similar situations, who might have chosen a different course of treatment because of the side effects that they potentially could have, and they might be different than the treatment I chose, surgery. But that's a personal decision, but when you go to get whatever treatment you're gonna get, you need to have the confidence and the people who are treating you, your support group that you have, and that you're doing the right thing, because it's gonna be tough enough as it is. You don't want to have doubts and that's the mindset you need to get to.
Dr. Lutz: Yeah. Well, besides your wife, what other resources or individuals did you kind of lean on or reach out to, to see if they could help you with this decision and in a sense kind of counsel you through this process?
Ken: Well, sure. There were two in particular, other than obviously your family one was my, a brother-in-law who had been dealing with a similar situation, and could give great advice. And ironically, and I think I shared, maybe didn't have time to share this story with you previously. But again, I was in the hospitality business. I was on a trip in California, in Napa Valley meeting with the winery and the president of that winery happened to grow up in Chicago with a family that one of the sons was a U of M athlete.
And he just happened to ask if I knew him. Ironically, I was in a senior group with him. He was a football player and he shared with me that he was having some health issues. And ironically, when I came back from that trip I reached out to him and he'd gone through the path I was about to face at that time.
I didn't know I was on that journey. My appointment with my physician, where I found out my PSA level had risen. Was about two and a half weeks after I got back from the trip. And after I reached out to him to say, "Hey, how you doing? I hear you weren't doing that well." And he tells me what he's dealing with.
And I said, you know how sour I was, but he was a football player, right. He was a lineman. Talk about rub mud on it and get back out there. And he was very confident and very tough minded about what his situation was and what he ne was gonna do about it. Two and a half weeks later, I get the diagnosis and then a week and a half later after that, the biopsy and then I get the diagnosis and then I'm facing options and having an advocate like him that I could reach out to that could walk me through the decisions you were gonna make, what to expect was priceless.
And I will always be thankful because I never walked into an appointment or a situation where I didn't hear from somebody who'd gone through that that could tell me this is what you're really gonna expect, and this is what you can expect, but I can tell you his mindset going into, it was one that I adopted to because we weren't gonna lose.
Right? We were gonna win. And that helped me. So, and I've offered to friends, who've dealt with this situation. I can be that person for them if they don't want it to be anyone to be, don't want it to be me. That's okay. So my first message is always get your PSA level checked, be aware, be your own advocate.
And then secondly, if there's an issue, don't be afraid to talk about it and then lean on somebody who can help you through it, because it's always better to know what you're going into having a scouting report per se, than it is to be surprised when you walk into these appointments. And I mean, of all the things to be meeting with someone on the other side of the country who mentions somebody's name, who then you reach out to, and you hadn't talked to in a long time, is dealing with this, and then you find yourself in that situation. It was unbelievable for me.
Dr. Lutz: Yeah. And once you were diagnosed, what was it like to share the diagnosis with your family and your friends? And how did you decide when the time was right to actually share the diagnosis? And what did you actually tell them?
Ken: Well, I, I can tell you, I don't know how common it is. I can only reflect on how my process went. And my process went very quickly, as I explained from elevated PSA to having, you know, the procedure to check the biopsies, to identifying the issue, to deciding on a treatment all happened within a six, eight week period. And I don't know how common that is or isn't so. I can tell you it moved quickly with me.
So I guess, number one, the reality of the situation, again, is nothing to be ashamed of. There's nothing anyone did or didn't do that I know of to cause it or not cause the situation. And I think everyone's personality leads them to deal with things differently. But I think having the awareness, self-wareness and being comfortable with the situation and what you need to do to get better.
I guess, especially with parents and things like that, you let 'em know. And I guess I didn't tell anybody until really I had a plan, but my plan came together relatively quickly. I guess I presented it that here's my situation and here's what I'm gonna do about it. And here's what it's gonna be like, as I understand it. Cuz there's, in the end, there's nothing anybody can really do for you.
But I think having the emotional support is important and it matters, but it's such a personal thing that everyone, I understand, processes it differently and deals with it differently. But early on, I couldn't help, but feel early on that if it wasn't treated right away, what would've been my story, and it might have been much different.
That was where my head was at relatively quickly. Once you get through the process and the procedure and all that's where my head lives. And for that, I feel good about.
Dr. Lutz: They talk about the association of anxiety, depression. Associated with the diagnosis of prostate cancer. Did you ever feel after you were diagnosed that there might be a role for perhaps some counseling or some type of psychological assistance during that process to help coach you through the process?
Ken: I think the, some of the things I described to you between conversations with your spouse and hopefully you have that relationship where you can speak honestly about that and what your situation is and gonna be. And then having someone or people in your life that I guess I kind of feel like my former U of M athlete and having a spouse in the medical field, I feel like I had that counseling and I had that because as I described with someone who'd gone through it. I mean, they were basically counseling phone calls.
I hung up the phone ready. Bring it on, ready for the challenge, bring it on. I'm gonna get through this. This is the best thing, um, kind of fired you up for it. And I think because there's no reason to not get down about it. And I think because it's a it's a serious thing, but I look at it, there's lifestyle ramifications, and then there's life and death right?
And for me and my support group, life and death was much more important than anything else. But I respect that the side effects and what can happen and the difficulties and challenges that it can present. Incontinence and all the, those things. That's why it's a personal decision.
And that's why I think it's great that you're providing this forum and can hear different opinions. My opinion isn't necessarily better than anyone else's opinion, but there's a mental side to this challenge. I was lucky because again, I had a support group of a spouse who could understand it and a friend who'd been through it couple and a family member who'd been through it.
And they were my counseling. It did put me in the right mindset to attack this.
Dr. Lutz: You know, you talk a lot about your athletic history. You played for the University of Michigan baseball team. Am I correct?
Ken: Yes, that is correct.
Dr. Lutz: And that was just a few years ago. Five, 10 years ago?
Ken: Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Lutz: What years were you at Michigan?
Ken: The older I get the better. I was. So no, I was there in the early eighties. So I was there 82, 83,84, and so that was the the Bo Schembechler, "Those who stay will be champions" and "The Team, The team, The team," and all those things. I'm all about all that. Bleed blue and the whole thing.
ButI have to tell you that again, it was a football friend who. I don't pretend to be cut from the same cloth because I didn't play the sport he played, but at the same time, I think we could understand each other from the mentality part of things. I mean the mental toughness and fortitude you need to deal with this is real, and I'm not gonna tell you that it was all that it was easy, that it was all good.
I'm telling you, you need people in your life who can offer that support, guidance, not just tell you it's gonna be alright. People you hardly know are gonna say, oh, that's too bad. You're gonna be fine. That's not necessarily what you need. You need people who understand it. You need people who've been through it.
You need people who can relate. And again, that's kind of how we began our conversation. And again, not to sound like a broken record. When you reflect back on it, you can't feel lucky enough that it was discovered when it was and treated when it was, because if not, it could be a different story.
Dr. Lutz: Sharing your story is part of what really helps us help the community. And I know that you are working at Blue Cross Blue Shield and the Vice President for Community Relations there. So what do you think you could do in a professional role that could help share this message? And help improve the health of our men's community and create a better awareness?
Ken: Sure. And I'm doing this interview with you. This is a personal story. I'm happy to share. Putting my professional hat on, I'm glad we can support the work that you do. And the Men's Health organization does. Again, early detection, early awareness, advocating for individuals to take ownership of their health and wellbeing. To pay attention to it, to stay in tune to it, to advocate for themself and make sure they stay on top of things and make sure early detection is so vitally, vitally important.
So I was, in my former world, happy to share my story too. But now that I do work where I work, it does give me maybe more of a little bit of a platform to meet different people involved in different things that can hear my story. And more importantly, do great work in the community to raise awareness, to share the message that this is gonna happen.
It happens to people. It happens to men and you need to be in tune with your health. You need to be aware of what's going on and you need to have physicians that support you and advocate for yourself, but also make sure that you are taking care of yourself. But that doesn't mean that you're not gonna get thrown a curve ball and something like prostate cancer can happen to you.
And if it does. Early detection. Being aware. How is early detection? You know this better than I do, Dr. Lutz. I mean, how's early detection gonna happen? Well, you may have symptoms and paying attention to your symptoms certainly would be one way. And if you're having symptoms, make sure you check those out.
That wasn't my story. I got lucky. Mine was just because I asked for a blood test to check my PSA. But having a baseline. You could explain this better than I can. Having a baseline for your PSA. So if it's changing, even if you're not having symptoms, I believe maybe saved my life. And there's probably lots of other ways, things and ways to pay attention to as well.
So that's the messag to men. Advocate for yourself. Early awareness,.Do everything you can do to be healthy, but at the same time regular visits, pay attention to your tests,,and if you get tests back and you see something's elevated, don't just wait till another year till next time, make sure you're paying attention. And I think that's vitally important.
Dr. Lutz: Well, I think you're spot on. The PSA really is one of the mainstays in making a diagnosis of prostate cancer. And one of the keys about that. Is that it's like, knowledge is power. If you don't know what your PSA is, you have no knowledge. And I always say, choose to know and then know to choose.
And the way I can say that in the converse is that once you know what your PSA is, you can then make the decision. What do you do next? And you can use the advice of your physician or your friends or other people who may have already gone through the same path that you've gone through to help coach you through the process and help you figure out which way is the best way to go.
You played baseball a lot. How did you transition from being a real avid athlete in your college years into your adulthood and stay healthy and stay fit and stay in shape?
Ken: Well I probably didn't do as good a job of that as I should have to be honest. But I think for athletes who compete at a fairly high level, when you have to train and need to train to perform.
And then that ends you gotta make decisions on what happens next. And I think being healthy, whether it's being active. That is one thing I will say, getting back to your question about where I work now. I mean, advocating for healthy communities through all the various programs that we have and all of our communities across the state.
Staying active and active can mean different things to different people. If you're a biker, if you're a walker, if you're a runner, if you're a gardener, whatever you like to do. A dancer. But staying active, every day is certainly very, very important. And I think that's one of the things I'm proud of about where I work now, is that not only do we provide health insurance to folks, but we provide plans in a way to try to keep people healthier. And I think it's a true benefit to being a member. And I also think it is a great lesson for everyone. And especially if you've been competitive at anything. And I know lots of people who maybe didn't play division one athletics, but they were avid runners.
And then all of a sudden, because of a foot or a knee or whatever, they couldn't run anymore. They play golf now, or they play pickle ball now, or they walk now. And I just think being active is a great way. Hydration, nutrition, and activity are all vital. And I think when you have bumps and bruises, nicks, whatever that stop you from being active.
And it's not necessarily the rub mud on it mentality, but when you have those situations that come. Does that mean you just quit being active or does that mean you change what you do or does that mean that you go see a physician and get it diagnosed and treat it properly? And those are all forks in the road, options that you have, that when we're talking about advocating for your well being, Are all decisions you have to make, and you can say, oh, I'm just gonna sit around for a month and hope it gets better.
Or are you gonna make a plan? And that's kind of where it falls on the individual to use the resources that are there for them to make it all happen and all come together.
Dr. Lutz: Yeah. You previously mentioned that you play golf, love that, and you love to watch hockey. One of our men's health events, we had Kris Draper and we interviewed him at our men's health event.
We asked him, how do you stay in shape? And he said, I make sure I maintain my weight. I don't ever eat after seven o'clock at night. I don't consume anything after 7:00 PM. That's my cutoff or anything and everything. And I think everybody has their trick, whether they're a former pro athlete college athlete, but somebody who maintained a high level of fitness.
It really is hard to go through life and to maintain that high level of fitness, just maintaining a level of fitness is challenging enough, but to maintain it to a level of the competitiveness that you lived is pretty impressive. You mentioned that to me, once that you love Gordie Howe. What made you love him so much besides the fact that we all love Gordie Howe?
Ken: Well growing up in Waterford, which means there's a lot of lakes, which means there was swimming in the summer and ice skating on lakes in the wintertime. And then they built Lakeland Arena when I think I was six or seven years old and it was about a mile and a half from my house.
So an indoor hockey rink was the new toy and I skated and started playing hockey. And played at a young age for a number of years. And at that of course time, it was the heyday of, or maybe starting to be a little bit to the end, but what I loved about him and what he is, the hometown hero, first of all, but his attitude.
And I fortunately later in life I got to meet him a few times. His humbleness. And the fact that he wasn't... I always would get into arguments with hockey fans about who was the greatest ever. Was it Wayne Gretzky or Gordie Howe? And I'm like, well, in my book, there's no comparison because one guy could look pretty and score a lot of goals, but one guy could play the entire game.
He could check, he could fight, he could score, he could assist, but the humbleness that he went about it, I just appreciated the dignity with which he carried himself. And it's a different, it was a different day and we idolized probably athletes a lot more now than we did then, but wasn't just the fact that he was good.
It was the way he acted. He didn't act like he was good. And I, thankfully you know, my, my dad and other people pointed that out maybe to me, but I just always thought that if you ever got really good at something, wouldn't it be great to act like that. And not act like you were all that. And that's what he did.
So not only was he the best, but he acted like he wasn't. And worked hard. Like he wasn't. And I think what great attributes to have. And that's what I idolized about him.
Dr. Lutz: Well, I think that's, it's made him such a great Detroit hero and I got a chance to actually see him and speak to him briefly at his last event he ever attended, which was at the Michigan Fitness Foundation when they showed the picture of the new Gordie Howe bridge.
And it was quite a moment gave me a lot of chills to actually see that moment. Even now to just speak about it is pretty moving to think about it.
Ken: Wow. That that's amazing. And he must have been not real well then.
Dr. Lutz: He was not, he was doing, I think, stem cell therapy. And he actually had this major comeback where he was actually able to walk with minimal assistance that evening. But he soon passed away.
Ken: Yeah. Well, it's a fitting. I hope it eventually happens I guess, but It's great to commemorate something like that. And I, again, back in the day you had hockey night in Canada, right? And you hoped the Red Wings are playing one of the teams and not when you have all these sports channels and all these things now.
So I'm dating myself, but in my mind they were idols, but we know how they were paid. We know how they were, it was a different era and they didn't act like idols, but in my mind, they were, and that's in my mind, that was the greatness about him. And when you met him. He was so humble and so almost surprised that you would even want a picture or an autograph because he just didn't think of himself that way.
And I had a chance to meet a few Ted Lindsay and Alex Delvecchio and Red Beresnon was a great Michigan coach. And I got a chance to meet and spend some time with him. And they were all pretty much like that, but nobody, nobody was like that as much in my mind as Mr. Hockey.
Dr. Lutz: Well, you know, you briefly mentioned earlier through your Michigan background Bo Schembechler.
And I don't know if you remember Bob Ufer, the voice of the "Meechigan" Wolverines, but he was like, everybody turned on the radio to listen to him and they turned off the volume on their TV. And the most emotional moment I ever had in my healthcare career was back in 1981 when Bob Ufer, was in the intensive care unit at Henry Ford hospital when I was involved in his care. And Bo and Millie Shembechler were standing at the end of the bed and it was just before Bob passed away. And Bo just sat there and cried his eyes out.
And literally everybody there cried with him because the loss of Bob Ufer was a big loss for all of us because he really symbolized what it was like to be part of the University of Michigan, to hear the voice and the soul of the University of Michigan. And to see it take someone like Bo Schembechler to his knees would take you down as well.
And it was a, it was a very moving moment and, and I've never forgotten it and it's been forever in my life.
Ken: Well, that's, that's the great part about Bo right? Is he had this hard crusty exterior, but when you got to know him and those, his players. I just spent some time with a few of his players at an event recently, he was genuine and he was he was a real guy too.
And that's kind of the, the lessons that they were trying to teach you when you were here. Thankfully, I was lucky enough in 1985 to win the senior athlete of the year at the university, which is named the Ufer Award. Ah, so as part of that I certainly not that I didn't know who Bob Ufer was. But that night they spent some, obviously that wasn't too far after the story that you told that I won that award. And they rightfully me memorialized him even still a number of years later, explaining he was part of the fabric of what it was all about. I did get a chance to at least know his legacy a little bit. And my Bo Schembechler story from there is, we're at this award banquet. And back then they gave one award. They picked a person. Now they pick a few people and I think they pick a male and a female athlete now, but they also, for the Ufer award, they'll give it to maybe three or four or five people.
Back then they had three finalists and they announced the winner at the event that evening. And I was really lucky to be a part of some really good teams that did some good things and was lucky to win fortunate enough to win. And about halfway through the banquet Bo showed up. And there were about, I don't know, however many people could be there.
It seemed like maybe five, 600 people. And Bo walked into the event as it was ongoing. And he went to table the table and said, hello to everyone. And shook their hand and talked to them and worked the room the rest of the night. He was basically there going table to table. Everything was happening. So after the event, I got this award and I was pretty excited and I came I came down and was with my dad and my dad was like, this is unbelievable.
And I'm like, no, I, I can't believe I got this award. He said, no, I got to meet Bo Schembechler!
Dr. Lutz: Yeah. It's funny what our parents see and what we see and
Ken: Meant more to him than me. That's for sure.
Dr. Lutz: But you know what? It's so great that sometimes you can see life through somebody else's eyes. And that was that moment.
And if you can always do that to see life in such positive ways through other people's eyes, that'll make your life even more complete. I just wanna say thank you so much, Ken. Thanks to Ken Hayward for just a great conversation and sharing something that is so near and dear and such a personal story about the prostate cancer journey from diagnosis through management and care.
And I wanna thank all of you for joining us. I'm Dr. Michael Letz urologist and the founder of the MIU Men's Health Foundation. Through our events, resources, and this podcast, we are dedicated to men's health, advocacy and awareness. We're focused on education, research and treatment of prostate cancer and men's health related issues.
For more information about the work that we do and how you can get involved. Visit us online at MIUMensHealthFoundation.org.